Talk:2022 European heatwaves

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Merge proposal[edit]

CLOSED
Agree to merging of June 2022 European heat wave and July 2022 European heat wave into 2022 European heat wave' as per wp:Consensus and wp:Split. Notes: 2022 European wildfires article found a new home also. There is, however, push-back on uniting the UK article here, so that should perhaps be a separate discussion in the future. Closed as merge all except UK. Closed without prejudice to the UK article's future. (Non-Administrative closure-- GenQuest "scribble" 02:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Formal request has been received to merge: 2022 United Kingdom heat wave, June 2022 European heat wave, July 2022 European heat wave, 2022 European wildfires into 2022 European heat wave (currently a disambigion article); dated: 16 July 2022. Proposer's Rationale: There are too many articles being created for the same event which is rather confusing. The 2003 European heat wave and 2006 European heat wave also affected different areas to varying degrees of severity and resulted in wildfires, but the information for those events were placed on a single page. Dan Discuss here. GenQuest "scribble" 05:25, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Seems sensible to have everything in one place as these events are probably not notable in themselves. It gets hot in summer and records are broken, we don't need an article for every heat wave in every country. In fact I tried to revert the article split yesterday with a view to restoring the original article, but got reverted myself. This is Paul (talk) 12:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. Breaking the UK temperature record by 4–5C is absolutely unprecedented. This is no minor heatwave, and is far more notable than what is going on in Europe which is more notable for the wildfires it has caused rather than the temperatures themselves. Buttons0603 (talk) 12:37, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Half Support: I definitely support putting June 2022 European heat wave and July 2022 European heat wave back into 2022 European heat waves, but because of the amount of stuff in the United Kingdom section, I think it should stay as 2022 United Kingdom heat wave, with a summary on the main article. For 2022 European wildfires, I think it should be the same as the UK one, but only if there's enough material in the article for it to have it's own article. Greyzxq (talk) 12:43, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: The page detailing the widespread European heatwave(s) was easily accessible yesterday. Today (17 July), I found out that there are three different articles on this heatwave, with the 2022 European heat wave page being a disambiguation page. I strongly believe that June 2022 European heat wave and July 2022 European heat wave should be moved back to 2022 European heat waves. As per above, I do believe though that 2022 United Kingdom heat wave be unchanged. Edl-irishboy (talk) 12:51, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merging 2022 United Kingdom heat wave into a broader article; this is a singularly significant event that's already receiving major coverage. Neutral on whether there should be separate June/July articles or one for the whole summer, and whether the wildfires are significant enough to have their own article or are better covered in the heatwave article(s). FrankSpheres (talk) 12:54, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: merge into 2022 European heat waves if the information on all articles as a whole can be attributed to one macro-region (for example, Europe), and individually the articles are small (~3-5 Kb). For example, the article 2021 Russia heatwave in this version merged into Heat waves of 2021#Eurasia and I don't mind this decision and I think it's logical. --Brateevsky (talk to me) 14:59, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Seems logical to merge these. Can't think of 1 reason to oppose. Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 17:09, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment from splitter – I originally split the articles on the grounds of them being distinct, individually notable events. I don't have any strong objections to merging them back together, but I personally feel it better serves the reader to not mesh the two events together if reports are covering the events separately rather than a single overarching event. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 19:39, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merging the three into one 2022 European Summer Heat Wave article. It's simpler on readers to put the UK, June and July articles into one basket. Jusdafax (talk) 22:29, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I support merging the June and July articles together into 2022 European heat wave. I can see both sides of the argument for the 2022 United Kingdom heat wave, but as of right now, I don’t personally think it is sufficient enough for its own separate page (likely to change in the coming days). As with 2022 European wildfires, in its current form I’d support a merge. Unless the UK and European wildfires articles can be expanded, I think all four should be merged into one. Fats40boy11 (talk) 07:29, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: They all refer to the same event and there is not enough content (at least, yet) to justify separate articles. If further expansion later justifies a split, it can be done then. Profzed (talk) 10:38, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: It seems most people agree that the June and July articles should be merged, with a bit of uncertainty about the others, so shouldn't someone merge June 2022 European heat wave and July 2022 European heat wave into the old article (2022 European heat waves)?
    For that to happen June 2022 European heat wave would need to be moved back to 2022 European heat waves then the July content could be copy/pasted over again. This is Paul (talk) 14:16, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think all of these can easily be one article. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 14:14, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. Needs a bit of cleanup so give me a few to fix it. Thanks Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 14:24, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Just noting that 2022 United Kingdom heat wave and 2022 European wildfires has not yet been merged into 2022 European heat wave. However, it may be worth keeping 2022 European wildfires and merging 2022 Portugal wildfires, 2022 Gironde wildfires and 2022 Moroccan wildfires into this page. This needs some discussion. --Daniel (talk) 15:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think that the UK page should stay separate, as it is over 12k bytes and is a notable part of the UK's climate history. I agree with you about the wildfires too, having an individual page for each large fire shouldn't be necessary unless the articles are big enough. Greyzxq (talk) 15:33, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • The wildfires merger sounds like a good plan, but Morocco probably needs to remain separate as it's not part of continental Europe and there isn't an equivalent page for Africa. This is Paul (talk) 16:33, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes that does complicate things a little, especially as it is so close to Europe and part of the same event. Another suggestion would be to change the name of 2022 European wildfires to 2022 European and Moroccan wildfires as 2022 Moroccan wildfires doesn't have enough material. Daniel (talk) 18:21, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - merging will match the 2003 European heat wave layout. And let this abnormal day of temperatures at the United Kingdom make people realise action needs to be taken against global warming properly to avoid similar days happening again.
  • Oppose to merging with 2022 United Kingdom heat wave per arguments above.//Lollipoplollipoplollipop::talk 20:04, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merging 2022 United Kingdom heat wave - the record temperatures and first ever red warning for extreme heat (notwithstanding that the alert system has only been in effect for three years) I think would justify keeping it un-merged. There is a lot of media coverage, including meta-coverage where the media is heavily covering how the media is covering the heatwave, which I think adds weight to the notability of the UK aspect. I take no position on the other proposed merges -- M2Ys4U (talk) 21:46, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose remaining merges, support previous ones Previous merges carried out make sense, but the UK broke records and is an appropriate WP:SPINOFF and the wildfires aren’t super related, but merge the smaller wildfire articles like the Morocco and Portugal ones into the main wildfire article, and rename it to European and Moroccan wildfires. 98.100.40.118 (talk) 01:23, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Merged individual wildfire pages into 2022 European and Moroccan wildfires. Some reorganization needed. Daniel (talk) 06:32, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merging 2022 United Kingdom heat wave - the article is already about the length of the European heatwaves article and likely to get substantially longer due to large media coverage representing the significance of the event. Best wishes, ~ El D. (talk to me) 08:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose to merging UK: Record breaking heatwave and response (or lack there of) is now also a political and unprecedented national health issue. vctrbarbieri(talk) 12:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I now oppose the merging of the UK article. Its length has grown and has notability in its own right. Arcahaeoindris (talk) 12:24, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - 2022 United Kingdom heat wave should be merged into this as well. People are now adding irrelevant info just so that the article remains separate. There's no reason for it to have a separate page. We shouldn't wait any longer and merge it into this one. Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 13:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This heat wave has caused the highest temperatures recorded in the UK, with other heatwave pages in the UK being separate with lower temperatures:
    1976 British Isles heat wave had a peak temperature of 35.9 degrees and yet it has its own page
    1995 British Isles heat wave had a peak temperature of 35.2 degrees and yet it has its own page
    2018 British Isles heat wave had a peak temperature of 35.3 degrees and yet it has its own page, and it too is a component of the 2018 European heatwave page
    2021 British Isles heat wave had a peak temperature of 32.2 degrees and yet it has its own page
    2022 United Kingdom heat wave, which is being proposed to merge, currently has a peak temperature of 40.2 degrees, higher than all the others
    Update - A major incident was just declared by the London Fire Brigade as fires have broke out in the city as a result of the heat wave in the UK. I think this article should say separate because it has become an emergency in it's own right which has had a major affect in the country. --KeyKing666 (talk) 15:45, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think the major incident definitely changes things, so I think we need to keep the UK article. This is Paul (talk) 17:17, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does a record temperature have to do with merging an article or not. Aquatic Ambiance (talk) 16:58, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only referring that heat waves which have had lower temps have their own pages. It is one factor into why it should not be merged. It is not just record temperatures, you've got fires breaking out across the parts of the UK, government meetings being called about it and even to the point where the London Fire Brigade have triggered an emergency response. --KeyKing666 (talk) 17:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merging the UK article. There is already sufficient, specific content to warrant a stand-alone article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:15, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Request to close – consensus has clearly switched to oppose ever since records have been broken and major wildfires started. Buttons0603 (talk) 16:19, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Heat waves come in a regional scale, the one in the UK and what happens in Europe is one and the same. Or it could be renamed as 2022 European heat waves in the UK. Sgnpkd (talk) 22:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Better Source Needed[edit]

For germany it says a better yource is needed for "From 14 to 20 June Germany saw 1636 excess deaths which are contributed to temperatures reaching 39.2 °C (102.6 °F) that week." is needed because the given Source doesn´t contain that Information.

But the Source gives "Die Sterbefallzahlen waren dabei vor allem in der zweiten Monatshälfte erhöht, als sehr hohe Temperaturen verzeichnet wurden. In den Kalenderwochen 24 und 25, also vom 13. bis 26. Juni, lagen die Sterbefälle mit +10 % und +14 % deutlich über den Vergleichswerten." and "Die gesamten Sterbefallzahlen lagen in der 24. Kalenderwoche um 1 636 Fälle oder 10 % über dem mittleren Wert der vier Vorjahre." with an additional information that the excess deaths are unlikely related to Covid-19.

I agree that a source from a national health agency like RKI would be better. But that one doesn´t exist to date. And if, they would use the Data published by the Federal Statistics Office. 2A02:810B:1040:5230:6CFC:F54D:3BC2:F436 (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose, the issue is that the statement claims that the heat did contribute, rather than it likely contributed. I'll fix it. Profzed (talk) 20:52, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In an article covering heat from June 12 to today (five weeks), it seems weird to only count one week of excess deaths. An uncited bit now says Germany's next week "spiked" 14%. Not sure if that's over the historical average, that week last year or the previous week, but it's more than one week's dead. This whole idea of blaming excess deaths on heat alone is wonky, but even wonkier when we just use the odd week from the odd country, ignoring possibly tens of thousands of similarly calculated "victims" across Europe. I have no solution, of course, we work with what we're given. But there must be some way to not suggest people in countries counting excess deaths are actually dying of heat over 300 times more often than in nearby Britain or Poland. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:16, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We don´t have sufficient Death Tolls from UK or Poland yet for June. Even for germany, only one Week so far is evaluated.
The Spike of 14% means, that the Death toll was 14% above the average of the same Week in the previous 5 Years.
In Week 24 we see a low Excess in Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and England. With Poland not reporting anything at all. For there, we just don´t know it.
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps
The Data published so far by Spain and Portugal uses the same method as Germany. Its "just" excess Deaths.
The Spike in Deaths is having a temporal correlation with the Heatwave. And no other course for this spike is known with Covid-19 not to blame for the extrem rise in deaths.
Sure, the sources could be better. Probably we have to wait until the End of the Year, until maybe a scientific study tried to figure it out. Until then, as you said, we have to use what we get. 2A02:810B:1040:5230:6CFC:F54D:3BC2:F436 (talk) 15:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, for now, add "(excess deaths)" to the relatively enormous and individually unreported figures in the infobox? Most death science is very confusing to many laymortals, I've found. Perhaps a tad reckless to fool some of them into thinking three European states are unduly targeted for destruction by an otherwise common and apolitical weather system. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:33, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Main image[edit]

The main image shows maximum temperatures in early July, shouldn't it be of the maximum temperatures in the entire time frame? For example, temperatures here in the UK reached 40°C, on the image the maximum temperature is around 25°C, which isn't exactly unheard of. I'm sure this is the case for other countries too. Furthermore, The UK isn't labelled but England is? Please let me know if this is a stupid suggestion. Angusgtw (talk) 16:16, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair points, but nobody made that image deliberately to illustrate this article, it's just a map that NOAA put out that week. The source at https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/regional_monitoring/wcmax1.png has now been updated to July 10-16, perhaps it's worth waiting for the 17-23 one if most of Europe is showing hotter in that one. --Lord Belbury (talk) 16:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I did see that NOAA made the image. I think it's probably worth updating to the 10-16 version instead of waiting three days, this article is on Wikipedia:In the news, so it should get a lot of traffic. Angusgtw (talk) 16:31, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done --Lord Belbury (talk) 16:37, 20 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just updated image to the 17-23 one. That's probably the peak of temperatures and therefore the final image needed, although it took a while after the 23rd for NOAA to upload it. Angusgtw (talk) 10:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Andorra[edit]

Really? Nfitz (talk) 23:10, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the ordering of the countries is far from ideal. I put Croatia's section below Andorra's, but the heat has been relatively mild here compared to many of the countries further down. (There have been some wildfires, but I'll have to track this down later.) It would be better to put more strongly affected countries, such as France, Slovenia, Portugal etc., at the top of the article. Daß Wölf 21:14, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not 100% sure if this discussion is about the order of the sections, but they are ordered alphabetically like most articles about widespread natural disasters are (storms/hurricanes, heatwaves etc). greyzxq talk 21:35, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"2022 European heat wave (disambiguation)" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect 2022 European heat wave (disambiguation) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 23#2022 European heat wave (disambiguation) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 1234qwer1234qwer4 11:28, 23 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Greece[edit]

Recent news seems to suggest that Greece is affected. There an article for 2021 Greece wildfires, and it seems uncertain if there will be one in 2022, probably depending on the magnitude of the events.

I do not really know how to write a whole new section, but I think some of the sources below would be used:

EDIT: I didn't realise 2022 European and Mediterranean wildfires was a page and already linked under See Also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xenmorpha (talk • contribs) 01:33, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Marmolada serac collapse[edit]

As this disaster is being considered a consequence of the heat wave, should the 11 deaths be counted in the total death toll or not? greyzxq talk 15:35, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is part of Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - see for example https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-022-01575-3 Chidgk1 (talk) 19:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, it’s not verified 2A02:A44C:6682:1:1C8D:398E:E74:5C1B (talk) 18:55, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In The News Proposal[edit]

Munci (talk) 18:32, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Number of deaths[edit]

The number of deaths under "Losses" appear to mostly be unsourced. For example, I searched for the death toll in Germany and could not find a number above 4,500. Is this something that should be reviewed? Scholarlydoubt (talk) 15:58, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It should be reviewed, and sources added I’ll have a look.2A02:A44C:6682:1:35FE:51C4:3219:AC42 (talk) 13:17, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Scholarlydoubt (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cyprus[edit]

Cyprus got removed because there was “no reliable source”. The source I used was Extreme Weather Watch.com, and I used that source already atleast 100 times on wikipedia, and extreme weather watch is a reliable source. The man who owns the website gets his information straight from the government, so extreme weather watch is about as reliable as it gets. so saying extreme weather watch is “unreliable” is a nonsensical excuse. so there must be something more to it… then. Do people put Cyprus as African or Asian country what? 2A02:A44C:6682:1:DC93:89B7:C082:A3AA (talk) 09:24, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to just be adding countries because they are in Europe, with your only source being extremeweatherwatch.com. Just because a country is in Europe doesn't mean it was affected by the heatwaves. You must provide reliable sources which directly say that the countries were affected by the heatwaves, and give more information than just a temperature. If you are just saying "there was a heatwave, it was this hot here", than that country might as well not be included if all you can say about it is that with just one source which says the temperature. greyzxq talk 12:08, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe I can just add the temperatures in the temperature table, and not write anything in the affected area.
So then countries that only inform about temperature can be added in the table just not in the text itself.
because temperatures are interesting for viewers and it sums it up in one short information piece, it is better then having to read a whole wall of text. 2A02:A44C:6682:1:F9FF:8C86:92D:3CBA (talk) 12:16, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey[edit]

@2A02:A44C:6682:1:F9FF:8C86:92D:3CBA: If you would like to create an article Heatwaves in Turkey that would be great - there was one in 2021 and no doubt there will be more - there are quite a lot of sources for example https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2022EGUGA..2412310Y/abstract Chidgk1 (talk) 18:53, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I’m not able to make a new page, because it is protected. 2A02:A44C:6682:1:F9FF:8C86:92D:3CBA (talk) 20:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just create an account. greyzxq talk 20:56, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How old do you have to be to make a Wikipedia account? 2A02:A44C:6682:1:F9FF:8C86:92D:3CBA (talk) 23:18, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are no age restrictions on Wikipedia. Look at Wikipedia:Guidance for younger editors if you are unsure though. greyzxq talk 23:55, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Making a completely new article is pretty difficult so if you decide to do so please submit as a draft - contact me on my talk page if you have any questions or problems about any new article.
Otherwise you might prefer to expand stub or start class articles first to gain experience. If you look at a ‘project’ you are interested in there is often a table showing which articles are important but need improving. For example at Wikipedia:WikiProject Climate change#Metrics we can click on the cell in the table for the 95 high importance articles which are only start class and choose one to improve.
If you are at college or uni your lecturer might be interested in https://wikiedu.org/ Not sure about high schools - might be that link or teachers might look at https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/training Chidgk1 (talk) 07:08, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Luckily I don’t go to any school, so fortunately I don’t have to worry about school related problems.
But I’m not sure if it’s a good idea for me to create a account because of other users, they might try to defame my account and vandalize my user page.
And I always have to log in then.
But I’m thinking about it, and maybe soon I will make an account, when I feel more comfortable with it. 2A02:A44C:6682:1:5862:7F19:CDA6:69F9 (talk) 21:04, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone ever vandalises your user page, that user will be dealt with and all vandalism will be removed so there's no need to worry about that! It is entirely your choice whether you create an account or not, however if you do it would likely be much easier to edit Wikipedia! greyzxq talk 21:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well at this rate, I’m never going to make an account.
why waste my time making an account when I’m just going to waste my time adding Information, eh?
it ALWAYS gets removed anyway, even though I added sources, but it still isn’t “good enough”! What do you want then? Pictures of the weather station?
I mean… come on.
I’m not going to waste my time on this article that’s being dominated by a self appointed arbiter who puts a RedWarn on the top. 2A02:A44C:6682:1:C950:DB5E:862D:676E (talk) 10:33, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just made a similar edition like in this article to the Danish & Polish Wikipedia, and they think it’s fine, hell, I even got praise for it!
so the mistreatment of me here on the English language Wikipedia is just a mix of racism & hatred towards minors. 2A02:A44C:6682:1:C950:DB5E:862D:676E (talk) 11:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Too much information[edit]

Also here i see too much information and I think we should remove the “metoerology” & “by country” sections because the information above & under the info box and the table of highest temperature per country is enough. 2A02:A44C:6682:1:61C6:CF1D:B4A6:A926 (talk) 14:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's not how Wikipedia works… both of those sections are very necessary, especially the By Country section, and without them the impact of the heatwave wouldn't be shown. greyzxq talk 16:07, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a way to shorten them? I have added countries and made sure to keep the information short so that readers don’t spend ages reading an article because Wikipedia is for quickly looking something up. 2A02:A44C:6682:1:D4E3:17B3:CA24:730D (talk) 17:35, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what Wikipedia is for. Wikipedia is an online encyclopaedia, and in encyclopaedias they don't leave out relevant information. greyzxq talk 17:43, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When I added information yesterday it was removed so when is it not enough or too much then?
Does Wikipedia have a word count with a maximum on it?
Because it seems it is always too much or not enough 2A02:A44C:6682:1:D4E3:17B3:CA24:730D (talk) 20:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox image[edit]

I was wondering what people thought of using File:EU Air Temperature Anomaly 2022.jpg in the infobox instead of the current image. Or should that image just be placed elsewhere. PalauanLibertarian🗣️ 17:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That image you suggested is now the infobox image. it indeed looks more appropriate for this article. 2A02:A44C:6682:1:35FE:51C4:3219:AC42 (talk) 13:25, 25 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

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