Talk:13th Dalai Lama

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Dead link[edit]

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New External Link[edit]

I added

Kt66 (talk) 05:23, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

File:3rdDalaiLama.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Query picture "13th Dalai Lama with the King of Sikkim, Darjeeling, India."[edit]

I cannot see that the image entitled "13th Dalai Lama with the King of Sikkim, Darjeeling, India" actually shows the 13th Dalai Lama. If this cannot be confirmed, image should not be in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samvs (talk • contribs) 11:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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The "prophesies"[edit]

Oh come on, this is a whole new level of religious propaganda... A vague prophecy of "difficult times ahead" (in the 1930s, who'da thunk?) and now we have to put there that they "came true"? I mean, I know that there are certain edit wars in article about Christianity, but this puhlease... Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:09, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ANSWER BY THOMAS KENT

The Great Thirteenth made that prophecy, but in more detail, and in various recensions, well before his death. In fact he made it in more detail: He said:

“In particular, we must guard ourselves against the barbaric red communists, who carry terror and destruction with them wherever they go. They are the worst. Already they have consumed much of Mongolia, where they have outlawed the search for the reincarnation of Je-tsen Dam-pa, the incarnate head of the country. They have robbed and destroyed the monasteries, forcing monks to join their armies or else killing them outright. They have destroyed religion wherever they’ve encountered it, and not even the name of Buddha-dharma is allowed to remain in their wake. I am sure you have heard the reports coming out of Ulan Bator and other such places.

It will not be long before we find the red onslaught at our own front door. It is only a matter of time before we come into a direct confrontation with it, either from within our own ranks or else as a threat from an external [communist] nation.

And when that happens we must be ready to defend ourselves. Otherwise our spiritual and cultural traditions will be completely eradicated. Even the names of the Dalai and Pan-chen Lamas will be erased, as will be those of other lamas, lineage holders and holy beings. The monasteries will be looted and destroyed, and the monks and nuns killed or chased away. The great works of the noble Dharma kings of old will be undone, and all of our cultural and spiritual institutions persecuted, destroyed and forgotten. The birthrights and property of people will be stolen; we will become like slaves to our conquerors, and will be made to wander helplessly like beggars. Everyone will be forced to live in misery, and the days and nights will pass slowly, and with great suffering and terror."

I first read this prophecy in 'The Religion of Tibet' by Sir Charles Bell, who was the ambassador to Tibet. It differs a little as I think HH gave this warning many times. In the Bell version, he says that the monasteries will be turned into piggeries and the nunneries into forced brothels - which was what happened. The book was published in 1931, and you may read it there if you obtain a copy. And Bell last visited Tibet in 1920!

Tibet fell because of corruption inside and out. Both the junior and senior teachers of the 14th Dalai lama were corrupt.

However thus prediction doesn't necessarily indicate prophetic power. The Communist invasion of Mongolia was in 1921, so the prophecy probably dates from that time. What it took was truly extraordinary shrewdness and insight, to realise that the communists had the dedication to sooner or later overwhelm the Nationalist government.

"according to"[edit]

I think it's better to use the phrase "according to" if the subject is controversial. Eipviongll (talk) 18:07, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar problem[edit]

Sorry, does anyone knows what this phrase means? "On 29th June of 1877, the Chinese Central Government approved exemption of using Chinese Golden Urn and ordered the soul boy to be the reincarnation of 12th Dalai Lama." Is badly writen in English and has no clear meaning. It's a problem of grammar or someone else does understand the meaning? what does "ordered the soul boy" mean for example? Was it the "sole boy"? or the "soul of the boy"? If is the second should be notice that the concept of soul does not exists in Buddhism. --TV Guy (talk) 19:30, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Soul boy" is translation of ཡང་སྲིད (灵童), "ordered the soul boy" means the soul boy can't really claim himself to be reincarnation of someone, it needs to be found, verified, approved, then ordered to be reincarnation of someone. Eipviongll (talk) 21:07, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an official translation for the term? --TV Guy (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New sections[edit]

I think more sections need to be created. What do you think? Description of the report can be very long, new sections:

selection of soul boys
First report sent to Amban
Chinese Golden Urn
Enthronement

Eipviongll (talk) 21:57, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest with you, I feel that we are on the edge of eliminating most if not all of that information depending on what's decided in the main article talk. --TV Guy (talk) 22:06, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The best way to write an article is to look at what the sources say and work from that, rather than cherry-picking whatever content you need to push a point of view.--Farang Rak Tham (talk) 20:36, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Enthronement[edit]

As with the 14th Dalai Lama article, I think we should re-think whether this whole section is even necesary or convenient:

  1. Is too long and too detailed, why? is irrelevant, we don't need so much detail about the issue, a couple of sentences is enough.
  2. Is a magnet for politically charge edit wars.
  3. Relies mostly on primary sources which are problematic and disencourage to use in biographies.

IMO should be eliminated, it could be place in the talk page as an archive of sort. Which anyway is one of WP's policies to put the disputed content on the talk page and not on the main. --TV Guy (talk) 02:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not the subject, TV Guy, but the sources. However, the situation here is less serious as in the 14th Dalai Lama, because this WP article is not subject to WP:BLP. So better tag for a while first, and when there is no correction, delete it.--Farang Rak Tham (talk) 20:34, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, but I still think is kind of too long for such a small part of the guy's life, is like dedicating four paragraphs to Queen Elizabeth's coronation. --TV Guy (talk) 22:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, TV Guy. Are there any secondary sources that can establish WP:DUE?--Farang Rak Tham (talk) 07:39, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I did add some that are from non-Tibetan scholars, but they are very few. --TV Guy (talk) 14:03, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For now I will bring the material here. In case new more valid sources are provided it can be re-added to the article.

According to most western and Tibetan historians[citation needed], the selection of the 13th Dalai Lama was made by Tibetan authorities without the involvement of China.[1][2] The "Golden Urn" process of selection was perform only to select the 9th to 12th Dalai Lamas.[3][4] Originally thought as a method used by the Qing Dynasty to ensurre its chosen to be selected, the process was rigged in such way that the elected was normally the desired candidate of the Tibetan leadership.[4] In any case, several experts assert that the Golden Urn was use in the 12th Dalai Lama selection for the last time and that Beijing's government had no direct saying in choosing the 13th.[3][4][1][5]

According to book "The System of the Dalai Lama Reincarnation" written by Chen Qingying, multiple soul boys were found for the new 13th Dalai Lama. Regent of Tibet, 10th Tatsag rejected extra soul boys using oracle. He composed report and asked the Chinese Central Government to exempt the 13th Dalai Lama from using the lot-drawing ceremony of using Chinese Golden Urn. Report was received by the new Amban Song Gui, and sent to the Central Government on 11th May of 1877.[6] [7]

According Chinese researcher from the Chinese own government Institute of the China Tibetology Research Center Chen Qingying, on 11th May of 1877, a request was sent to the Chinese Central Government for approval of the 13th Dalai Lama and his exemption of using Chinese Golden Urn. [8]

On 29th June of 1877, the Chinese Central Government approved exemption of using Chinese Golden Urn and ordered the soul boy to be the reincarnation of 12th Dalai Lama. [9] The order reads

Lawbuzhan Tabukejiamutso, son of Kunga Rinchen, be the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama, excempted fro using the Chinese Golden Urn.[9]

However according to Chinese government sources, after getting approval to be exempted from using the Chinese Golden Urn from the Chinese Central Government of the Qing Dynasty on 29th June of 1877, Thubten Gyatso became the 13th Dalai Lama[9]. Order from the Chinese Government was read in front of the boy on 14th October of 1877. [10] The pabbajja and renaming of Thubten Gyatso were done on 11th January of 1878.[10] After allegedly getting approval from the Chinese Government for the enthronement ceremony on 13th June of 1879,[11] he was enthroned in the Grand Reception Hall at the Potala Palace on 14th June of 1879. [12][13] The ceremony was allegedly approved by an imperial edict.[14] According to Qing historian Max Oidtmann, the Lhasa ambans were involved in the installation of the three-year-old incarnation on his dais. On the first day the young Dalai Lama was taken before the image of emperor Qianlong and performed the “three genuflections and nine prostrations” (a full kowtow) before it. On the next day, in the great Dug’eng Hall the emperor’s congratulatory edict was read out, and the Dalai Lama, together with the regent, again performed the ketou and bowed in the direction of the court.[15]

References

  1. ^ a b Powers, John. The Buddha Party: How the People's Republic of China Works to Define and Control Tibetan Buddhism.
  2. ^ Banyan. "The golden urn Even China accepts that only the Dalai Lama can legitimise its rule in Tibet". The Economist. Retrieved 29 September 2017.
  3. ^ a b Tsepon, Wangchuk; Shakabpa, Deden. One Hundred Thousand Moons: An Advanced Political History of Tibet.
  4. ^ a b c Gardner, Alexander. "Treasury of Lives: The Controversy of the Golden Urn". Trycicle. Retrieved 29 September 2017.
  5. ^ Zwisler, Evan (2012). "Tibetan Buddhism and the Chinese Communist Party: Moving Forward in the 21st Century". Claremont McKenna College. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
  6. ^ Chen QingYing (2005). The System Of The Dalai Lama Reincarnation. China Intercontinental Press. ISBN 978-7-5085-0745-3.
  7. ^ 陈庆英 (2003). 达赖喇嘛转世及历史定制. 五洲传播出版社. pp. 110–. ISBN 978-7-5085-0272-4.
  8. ^ 陈庆英 (2003). 达赖喇嘛转世及历史定制. 五洲传播出版社. pp. 110–. ISBN 978-7-5085-0272-4. 在接到摄政济咙活佛·阿旺班丹的呈文和甘丹赤巴等人的公禀后，松桂于1877年5月11日给 朝廷奏报
  9. ^ a b c 陈庆英 (2003). 达赖喇嘛转世及历史定制. 五洲传播出版社. pp. 110–. ISBN 978-7-5085-0272-4. 6月29日驻藏大臣松桂就接到谕旬∶"工噶仁青之子罗布藏塔布克甲木错即作为达赖喇嘛之呼毕勒罕，毌庸掣瓶。"
  10. ^ a b 陈庆英 (2003). 达赖喇嘛转世及历史定制. 五洲传播出版社. pp. 110–. ISBN 978-7-5085-0272-4.
  11. ^ ChenQingYin (2005). The System Of The Dalai Lama Reincarnation. China Intercontinental Press. pp. 109–. ISBN 978-7-5085-0745-3.
  12. ^ 陈庆英 (2003). 达赖喇嘛转世及历史定制. 五洲传播出版社. pp. 110–. ISBN 978-7-5085-0272-4. 1879年2月摄政济咙活佛向驻藏大臣报告，拟于藏历土兔年（公元1879年）6月13日举行达赖喇嘛坐床大典，青转奏皇帝。在得到朝廷的批准后，6月13日举行达赖喇嘛坐床大典，请转奏皇帝。先到三界殊胜殿，对乾隆皇帝的御像行三跪九叩礼，礼拜布达拉宮各主要佛像，然后迸入日光殿，登上达赖喇嘛的宝座。接受僧俗官员的礼拜。6月14日卯时，在司西平措大殿举行隆重的坐床大典。
  13. ^ The Thirteenth Dalai Lama, Thupten Gyatso, dalailama.com.
  14. ^ Dorje Tseden, On the Thirteenth Dalai Lama Ngawang Lozang Thubten Gyatso (translated by Chen Guansheng), in China Tibetology Magazine, No 32004, 2005.
  15. ^ Max Oidtmann, Playing the Lottery with Sincere Thoughts: the Manchus and the selection of incarnate lamas during the last days of the Qing, Academia.edu, p.31-32.

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