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Section "As a digit"
This is ridiculous, but since D Lazar is threatening a block over this, I figure we need to discuss it.
The lead makes it clear that there is a difference between a number and the written symbols for that number. (And also the words for that number, but he deleted that.)
However, in the text the concepts of number, numeral and digit are confused. A number obviously can't have a line drawn through it, since it's an abstract quantity. There's also a difference between 'digit' and 'glyph', which the editor doesn't understand but is edit-warring over anyway.
The glyph used today in the Western world to represent the number 1, a vertical line, often with a serif at the top and sometimes a short horizontal line at the bottom, traces its roots back to the Brahmic script of ancient India, where it was a simple vertical line. It was transmitted to Europe via Arabic during the Middle Ages.
There are several glyphs for 1 used today. X-height and capital height, with and without serifs, those are all different glyphs for 1. We mean the digit 1. If we want to used the word 'glyph', we need to put it in the plural.
It's arguable whether we should use the word "number" here or not. The digit is also used for e.g. the number 21, which isn't the number 1 but in English does contain the numeral "one". Though "numeral" isn't perfect wording either, since the digit is found in e.g. 11 which isn't the numeral or the number.
As for the serif at top but a "short horizontal line" at bottom, that's what a serif is! 1 often has a half serif at top, even in handwriting, and a full serif at bottom in print, though in old-fashioned typefaces there may be a full serif at top and bottom.
Also, AFAIK the Brahmi numerals are not traced back to the Brahmi script itself, and 1 was not transmitted via the Arabic language, which of course doesn't have digits. I hadn't fixed those, but might as well point them out. So, the para would be better as,
The digit used today in the Western world to represent the numeral [or number] 1, a vertical line which often has a half [or left] serif at the top and (in print) a full serif at bottom, traces its roots back to the Brahmi numerals of ancient India, where it was a simple vertical line. It was transmitted to Europe as one of the Arabic numerals during the Middle Ages.
Next para, more confusion.
In some countries, the serif at the top is sometimes extended into a long upstroke, sometimes as long as the vertical line, which can lead to confusion with the glyph for seven in other countries. Whereas the number 1 is written with a long upstroke, the number 7 has a horizontal stroke through the vertical line.
Again, there are many glyphs for the digit 7. Some have a cross-stroke, in which case the 7-like glyph of 1 that we're talking about would not be confused with the 7. And the number 7 doesn't have a line through it, because a number is an abstract quantity and doesn't have any form at all! What we're really talking about the digits being confused, with a specific glyph for 7 to remedy the problem. Also ambiguous of the word "whereas".
In some countries, the serif at the top is sometimes extended into a long upstroke, sometimes longer than the vertical line, which can lead to confusion with glyphs for 7 in other countries. In countries where the glyph for [or digit] 1 is written with a long upstroke, the glyph for [or digit] 7 has a horizontal stroke through the vertical line.
— kwami (talk) 19:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I have change the section heading, as I consider yours as a personal attack (see WP:Personal attacks. As you seem to consider important to use the correct wordings, you should also be careful in spelling my username. Please correct it.
- Glyph: The shape of the symbol used for denoting the number one and the digit 1 is called a glyph. The use of character or symbol could be acceptable, but certainly not digit, as the digit 1 is the same but has a very different shape in various languages.
- Numeral and digit: A numeral is a symbol (or a sequence of symbols), a word, or a phrase that is used for representing a number. A digit is a specific numeral used in the modern positional number system. Generally, a digit consists of a single symbol, but this is not always the case; for example, in 1,234, one may consider that 234 is a digit for the base 1000. So, 1 is a numeral that represents the number one; it is also a digit that is used for representing numbers greater than 9. Also, a numeral represents a number. It may be written, but certainly not represented as you suggest with your formulation.
- The section that you have edited is a summary of another aricle, which is intended for a wide audience. So technical typographic details are not convenient here.
- On the other hand, I agree that the use of "number" after "whereas" is incorrect. I have fixed this by replacing it by "digit" (twice).
- In summary, except for the last point, your edit does not improve the article. Let us wait for seeing the opinion of other editors. D.Lazard (talk) 21:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
- I see three concepts here:
- Number. 12 is a number. (1 is also a number, but that example is less helpful, as 1 is also a digit and a glyph.) It's an abstract quantity independent of any representation. In articles about integers, "number" is usually but not always a shorthand for "natural number".
- Digit. Most systems represent the number 12 as two digits, the second of which is known variously as "2", "二" (Chinese 2), etc. (The digits in a number may vary: the Mayan system represents 12 by a single digit "𝋬" which only displays correctly if an uncommon font is installed.)
- Glyph. 2 and 二 (Chinese 2) are different glyphs representing the same digit. (Other glyphs such as "A" and "&" which represent non-numbers.)
- Let's pick a standard term for each of those three concepts and use them consistently. I don't feel strongly about which words should be chosen. In particular, I don't think "digit" is the best choice for concept 2, as that word is also used for concept 3. We might avoid numeral: the term might mean digit or glyph, and our page of that title is a dab. Certes (talk) 22:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
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Wangchuk123 (talk) 08:18, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
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Semi-protected edit request on 12 October 2022
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Make a 1 to be spelld *one* 18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:47, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kpgjhpjm 14:56, 12 October 2022 (UTC)