Wikipedia talk:Banning policy

Effect of a TBAN on your own user talk

WP:TBAN gives a very nice set of examples about TBANs. However, I noticed today that while "talk pages" (generically) are mentioned, it's not necessarily clear to all TBAN'd people whether your own user talk page (where we typically allow greater freedom).

Imagine this scenario:

• User:Example gets a TBAN about Foo.
• User:Innocent, who is unaware of the TBAN, goes to User:Example's talk page and asks a question about the article there (e.g., about a edit made by User:Example in the past).

What range of responses are permitted to User:Example? In the most draconian interpretation, even replying to say "I'm not really following that article any longer, so you should probably talk about how to improve it at the article's talk page" might be considered a violation. Is this permitted? Is anything else permitted? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:06, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I've been in that situation several times and I have just said: "Thanks for your note but I can't discuss that". There has never any drama made over that by tps. I do not think a TBANed person should give any advice about what the other person should do. Jytdog (talk) 20:24, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

I think it would take a really special brand of knob head to conclude that saying you're not going to talk about a topic constitutes talking about it. Anyone running to ANI with that is unlikely to get far with it. Reyk _YO! 13:06, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

In general, the accepted and encouraged practice is for User:Example to say something along the lines of "I'm afraid I can't discuss that topic right now" or "I am not allowed to discuss that due to an extant topic ban" or "I am not editing in that area right now, and I can't contribute to that discussion". User:Example is free to mention the existence of his topic ban, but isn't required to. (That is true on the user's talk page or anywhere else it might be relevant. The mere fact that a user is topic banned is not, itself, in the scope of the ban. Unless the topic ban is actually on the topic of topic bans, which starts to get really weird....)

An editor who attempted to get Example in trouble for any of those statements would be roundly mocked and possibly boomeranged at AN/I. As a related aside, admins also don't look kindly on any User:NotSoInnocent who makes repeated or inflammatory posts on a topic-banned user's page in an effort to goad them into a violation; see WP:BEAR. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:05, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Updating WP:TBAN

This is just a minor suggestion. TBAN doesn't clarify anything about article creation, and I think it should. My reason simply is to make sure that TBAN editors don't create articles revolving around topics they're TBANed for. The possibility of TBAN editors might have an WP:OWNing attitude or simply trying to evade their TBAN because the community failed to mention article creation. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 19:04, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. It would also protect editors who believe in good faith that they're allowed to create articles. It would take up very little space and could head off trouble. I see this as similar to the line saying "and the topic ban applies to your own talk page and userspace too." Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:51, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I don't see how this would be necessary, and I don't see article creation as equivalent to edits in one's own user space. It's not a grey area and I can't imagine how it could become one. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

BANREVERT and involvement

I will point to this recent AE Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Atsme as an example of where an editor, in all ways "involved" w.r.t. a second editor, interpreted that second editor's TBAN to take it on themselves to revert the removal of their text by that second editor, claiming BANREVERT to do the reversion. Ignore all other aspects of that situation, it seems to me that BANREVERT should not be done by editors that have a potential involvement with the editor that is under a ban, particularly in a case where we're talking a TBAN and the topic's relevance to the TBAN is not crystal clear. I feel this could readily lead to edit warring by battling editors. But that said, I can't envision the entire scope of how adding some type of "uninvolved" language to BANREVERT would affect other uses, so I'm just throwing out the idea if such language could be added or why it should not. --MASEM (t) 15:02, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that involvement is irrelevant here (I assume you mean in the general sense, not admin-level involvement, but my point is the same either way) as edits made by banned editors may be reverted by anyone, anytime, without regard to the usual limits on reversion (such as 3RR). Banned means banned. Of course, if the editor being reverted is not editing against a ban, then the editor doing the reverting is subject to all of those normal limits, but then involvement is still irrelevant. But to your point about being sure about the scope of a topic ban, it's on the editor doing the reverting to ensure that they're actually reverting a banned edit, and if they're not sure they should not use BANREVERT as a rationale. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:23, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Agree. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:34, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Agree with both the above. I mean, ideally, there should usually be some other content-based reason for reverting apart from BANREVERT, but requiring that such a reason be stated upfront, but only by "involved" editors, is too much; especially when the definition of "involved" could simply be "knowing enough to know that the editor is banned", in which case only involved editors would be able to invoke BANREVERT. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 20:40, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Agree and comment: Masem seems to be describing a situation in which someone said, "You're topic banned from THIS, so that proves you're filth and I can revert you on THAT." That is not how the topic ban system as written is meant to work. The stigma is causing a disruption. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:12, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24: Assuming I'm interpreting your "THIS", "you're filth" and "THAT" correctly, I think you are misinterpreting Masem's original comment, which relates to "grey" areas that may or may not be covered by the ban (the topic's relevance to the TBAN is not crystal clear). And I gotta say, I don't agree with you regarding the "stigma": I was TBANned for two years (and still am subject to two separate suspended TBANs), and have never experienced the scenario you described. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:31, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

That's good. I don't know of anyone who deserves to be treated like that. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:39, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Permanent ban

If a user was banned many times, will a user get permanent ban? FourBowl5905100 (talk) 10:17, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

There are some folks who are de facto permanently banned, but in theory all community-imposed bans or ArbCom bans are subject to appeal. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:18, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

The right to appeal can also be removed. Endercase (talk) 19:30, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Both community-imposed and ArbCom-administered bans may include a time restriction, i.e. "This ban may not be appealed for at least twelve months" or wording to that effect. I don't think I've ever seen a ban that explicitly and flatly forbids any appeal or request for parole in perpetuity; in a legalistic sense I suspect that such a restriction won't work because neither ArbCom nor the community at large have the authority to irrevocably bind themselves and their successors to a particular remedy or course of action.

In practice, there is nothing which compels the community or ArbCom to expend more than the most cursory effort in considering futile requests. From a technical standpoint, it is possible to remove an account's ability to post to all pages on Wikipedia (including their own talk page) and to send email to other Wikipedia editors, which leaves them only socking (which gets quickly shut down, generally) and emails to ArbCom or the Foundation (which are usually dealt with off-wiki) as mechanisms by which to file appeal or parole requests.

In theory, any ban could be reversed at any time, given appropriate extenuating circumstances. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:50, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

AFD

A recent dispute has raised a point I was not really aware of (but it is clear if you think about it) AFD's are discussions, and thus IBANS are affected by them.

I am wondering if this slight confusion could be clears up by changing the wording to add something like "including AFD's".Slatersteven (talk) 11:00, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

• For some IBANs this would make sense, for others less so. I think it'd be better to clarify this issue on the individual IBANs rather than all of IBAN generally. Reyk _YO! 11:29, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

I think that is too open to an Admin forgetting, or an affected edd not understanding.Slatersteven (talk) 11:33, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Proposal for mandatory minimum duration length for CBAN discussions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The discussion has run for quite a long span of time (~ 11 days), whilst being notified about at multiple prominent venues and there seems to be a near-unanimous snow consensus to Y implement the proposed policy-change.Whilst some have wished greater time-frames, no consensus could be found for the implemenation of any of them.~ Winged Blades^Godric 04:18, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

---

I'd like to see a change to WP:CBAN from "Sanction discussions are normally kept open for at least 24 hours to allow time for comments from a broad selection of community members." to "Sanction discussions must be kept open for at least 24 hours to allow time for comments from a broad selection of community members."

Summarizing from here: Can someone please explain why there's a rush to close banning discussions? If the editor is currently being disruptive that can be solved with a block. Otherwise it saves a lot of time and discussion when the editor or someone else complains that not all interested community members had a chance to comment. The shorter the discussion stays open, the better for opponents of the editor to steamroll through a sanction. All sides - opponents, supporters, uninvolved (who usually take longer to comment) - should get at least the chance to be heard. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:40, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support Pretty much everyone in the linked discussion seemed to agree with this on principle. I don't necessarily support the longer 48-hour wait discussed there, and think "mercy" should still be observed in SNOW cases (where all leaving it open will do is allow more "Yeah, ban 'em" comments to pile on) per IAR.

I'd actually support stronger "encouragement" of closers to take care with timing of closes in general (not just ban discussions); it recently came to my attention that non-admins have closed AFDs as "keep" when consensus was clearly in favour of deletion (with one "keep" that ignored policy and sourcing) until six days in, at which point the one "keep" engaged in disruptive canvassing that allowed a sudden steamrolling.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:58, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

While piling on may be a risk, I trust that admins and experienced editors will step in and stop that from getting out of hand. Plus, down the road when hearing possible appeals, it's always useful to see if there was strong, broad community consensus or a consensus of highly affected editors. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:29, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose Needless bureaucracy. Cases can be decided or overturned on their merits, just as they always have been. Gamaliel (talk) 03:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support there are never good reasons to rush through a CBAN that quickly. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:19, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support It can not be a community ban if there is not a good faith attempt to get input from the community or at least that subset of the community who have AN/ANI on their watchlist. Most people do not even check their watchlists every day and closing before 24 hrs means even fewer eyes and opinions on the matter. Most editors who come up for a CBAN have, at one time or another, made valuable contributions to the project. The least we can do is allow for a reasonable time to hear whatever arguments there may be for not nailing down the coffin lid. Jbh ^Talk 04:03, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Sounds good to me. --Jayron32 04:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support - What may be 7pm in one country (USA/Washington DC) could 1 in the morning in another (UK), Anyway no need to close discussions the moment their open especially when it's inregards to CBans, Personally I think leaving for 48hrs is better however 24 is most certainly better than 10. –Davey2010^Talk 04:22, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support It's not "needless bureaucracy"-it's not bureaucracy at all-but if it is, It's necessary bureaucracy: we should be automatically leaning towards providing too much, rather than too little, time for discussion on what are probably the most important discussions there are here. >SerialNumber54129^{...speculates} 08:31, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support A ban cannot be a community ban unless members of the community have had a reasonable chance to notice the discussion and respond. The target can receive a normal block if needed but 24 hours is required to assess a ban. I support 24 hours and don't recall examples where 48 hours would be desirable. Johnuniq (talk) 08:42, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support. 24 hours at minimum IMO, arguably longer, since it sometimes takes a while for word to get around. Gatoclass (talk) 11:09, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support Seems entirely reasonable. ~ !dave 12:26, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support - We're a WP:GLOBAL WP:VOLUNTEER project, and we should not be conducting business so that only the most active users in a few time zones decide fairly consequential community actions. GMG^talk 15:27, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

  I have taken the liberty of adding this to WP:CENTRAL. GMG^talk 15:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support 24 hours, oppose anything longer as that only adds needless drama. Also, I see no need for an RfC on this: just update the policy to what is the usual understanding for what it means. This isn’t controversial. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:42, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

  Well, given that it's already been opposed by an experienced editor (who presumably would therefore revert a bold change to the policy in favor of community discussion), it may not be particularly controversial, but it's not uncontroversial either. GMG^talk 15:53, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

  Meh, if this were just a discussion and not an RfC, we could have made the change already based on consensus that it was a minor tweak to the policy that simply clarified the existing understanding of the wording by most of the community (which is what it is). The irony here being that this RfC has a shot of closing in less than 24 hours at the current rate... TonyBallioni (talk) 16:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

  And also a shot of being challenged and reopened on procedural grounds, as WP:NOTLAB recently was. Better to mind our jots and tittles from the outset IMO. GMG^talk 16:12, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

  RfCs should typically be the last option for determining consensus, not the first, especially for such a minor change. I don't blame Neil for opening it, I just oppose the idea that every minor change to a project space page must have an RfC, as I think that the comparison to NOTLAB is very different. I hope someone will come along in a few hours and close this, assuming that the current trend carries out. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

  @TonyBallioni: Another editor turned my initial comment into a RFC. I didn't and don't object. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 07:16, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

  @NeilN: Thanks, didn’t notice the history. Like I said, I think we could have shut this down already if it were just a discussion, and given the response right now, think we probably should. It’s an uncontroversisl clarification, and I think having to have RfCs on every one of those is a negative for the project as it increases the bureaucracy and makes the normal consensus building process more difficult. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

  @TonyBallioni: I agree with you but if editors wanted a RFC I figured it would be counter-productive to force them to open one, separate from this discussion. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

  Meh. I tend to favor permanency over expediency in cases like this. It's an occasional personal bias I've grown to be comfortable with. GMG^talk 16:17, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support 24 hour minimum (but nothing longer) - on pure principle that we should have a duration that these discussions must remain open before they're allowed to close. This is to mandate that a reasonable timeline be provided so that as many people in the community as possible can have a chance to participate. Most of our other discussions have durations like this defined (i.e. XFD, RFA, etc) and it's only proper that we have one defined here. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:46, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Establishing consensus requires patience; since there is never an urgency to impose a community ban, time should be allowed to let the global community of editors consider and offer their views. Regarding the potential for drama as a conversation progresses, editors should be able to constrain their comments in a matter to avoid unnecessarily antagonizing any of the participants, particularly when a consensus is clearly emerging. isaacl (talk) 17:23, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support per nom. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 17:56, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
• Further comment How would this proposal work with the May 2017 decision that a "community indefinite block" can only be appealed to the community? Are "block" discussions still to be SNOW-closed regardless of elapsed time? A number of commenters in the current "Darkness Shines" case (particularly those who commented on his talk page while he was "banned") appear to have had a problem with the speedy close based more on the cosmetics of a "ban" that can only be appealed to the community being imposed that fast, without being aware that a block imposed under those conditions is functionally identical to a ban in terms of how it must be appealed. I personally would not mind this proposal applying equally to "community blocks" as to "bans", but how do others feel? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • The edit in May did not introduce a change from practice at the time or now: in spite of the ambiguity introduced by the text change, a block is not an imposed editing restriction. As described in the third paragraph of the banning policy, a block is used by administrators to deal with immediate problems, or to enforce a ban. I appreciate that some think if editors say "support indefinite block", their stated view should only be taken literally, rather than as a colloquial expression of intent. Either way, though, there's no distinction in practice: they both result in an editor being unable to edit, and appeals of editing restrictions imposed by the community are handled by the community. With regards to this proposal, the issue isn't really the resulting decision, but whether or not the community has been sufficiently patient to allow a consensus to develop across the global community. isaacl (talk) 05:01, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, the current language recommends this as a best practice and that's good enough. The proposed language provides a technical loophole for editors to argue that their ban is invalidated by the discussion not being open long enough. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 23:00, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@Ivanvector: Yeah, but that happens anyway: see the discussion linked by NeilN; technically it wasn't the banned editor himself who was claiming the ban was invalidated, but still. (I was initially on the side of reopening that discussion, but all it seems to have done is allow the editor's friends to muddy the waters with !votes that ignore all the context: claiming that a limited topic ban from "American politics" would somehow prevent edit warring and personal attacks in edit summaries on the Cambodian genocide article, arguing that stepping down the level of sanctions from last time would magically have a stronger effect, making strawman attacks against those supporting the ban by calling them "civil POV pushers", etc.)

In cases where a clearly NOTHERE editor like this one made a wikilawyer-ish claim, they could just be dismissed and talk page access revoked (see my "IAR" remark above).

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:17, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• Support for site bans, but prefer 7 days. Support 24 hour minimum for other (page/topic/interaction etc) bans. Site bans are the most serious sanction the community can impose and are difficult to appeal due to their nature. They should be strongly considered with as many eyes as possible before being enacted. Regarding other types of bans, the most common criticism of community bans is that they were made by only only a few people so can't really be considered a community ban. Any type of community ban should be considered in depth, and the editor given time to respond to concerns. This proposal would not, of course, prevent an admin from blocking an editor who is editing disruptively (during a ban discussion or anywhere else). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:35, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
• Suppport - These are important decisions with lasting and sometimes unforeseen consequences. I'm in favor of making sure that lynchmobs of drama board denizens are not allowed to run riot and that these matters are resolved thoughtfully. Carrite (talk) 13:30, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support 24 hours as a bare minimum per Oshwah. It's only fair that a discussion be open at least a full day to allow people in all timezones a chance to participate. ansh666 01:01, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support 24 hr minimum, but would be open to a longer period. AfDs run for a min of 7 days; surely, banning an editor from the site is a more consequential decision? I understand that this is done to minimise drama, but 48 hours seems more reasonable. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:33, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support. It drives me nuts when barely a few hours pass, there are six people supporting some proposed sanction and they've each posted in every other dramaboard thread they can find, and then someone comes along and slaps a little purple box on the thread and there we go, The Community Has Spoken! Of course there should be a 24-hour minimum, in an environment where people are working from different time zones and not everyone has the time to F5 ANI all day. I'm of two minds on making it longer than that - yeah, AfDs are seven days and a ban is a bigger deal than most AfDs, but the article isn't watching its colleagues weigh in on its poor performance the whole time. It's also possible to fix an article given a few days to do the research, but rarely possible to make a behavioral change in that timeframe. Of course, no matter what the minimum is, I expect that closers will have the common sense to realize that's a minimum, not a deadline, and there's no need to jump on it at 24 hours and 2 minutes. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:54, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support It takes us a week to delete an article if there's even the slightest chance of disagreement, often longer. It should take us at least a day to decide to ban an editor from the site. Yunshui ^雲_水 16:02, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support 24 hours minimum per Oshwah and :Ansh666 it allows users from all time zones to participate.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 04:14, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support Generally a minimum of a week for site bans at least, also the person who is being banned should be notified of the discussion, if they don't have talk page access then they should email the AC to add their defense, it is grossly unacceptable that users aren't often notified of proposed site ban discussions, if someone is being trialed for life imprisonment, they are entitle to defend themselves so why should it be any different on WP, also at the top of ANI is specifies that you must notify anyone who you are discussing. I don't see a problem with not having a maximum time (unless it is done to try to persist in banning them) Of course we can IAR and close earlier in limiter cases and maybe a temporary ban such as they can only edit their own user/talk page and the discussion at ANI until the proposed ban is enacted, or similar for topic bans. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support24 hours make sense with the usual IAR caveat if there is a blizzard of !votes in either direction. Blackmane (talk) 10:56, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I think the point is that these discussions should not be snow-closed before 24 hours, even through IAR. power~enwiki (π, ν) 16:38, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
• (invited here by by) Support. I can't think of a good reason why we shouldn't allow at least 24 hours for these discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 09:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support. I'd probably support longer since not everyone edits once a day. Nihlus 02:03, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
• Support as an absolute mimimum. For one thing, it would not be an equitable process if users are disenfranchised due to their times zones, but it should not be considered a maximum either, by quick-on-the-trigger closers. I would personally prefer even a longer minimum in order to avoid any aspect of a kangaroo court, while stressing that ANI and AN, as their names imply, are administrator noticeboards. That said, and because it was mentioned, this RfC has a clear consensus and could already be closed now.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:17, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: update to banning policy for repeat sockmasters

There is currently an RfC being held at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: update to banning policy for repeat sockmasters about an update to the banning policy for repeat sockmasters. All are invited to comment. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2018 (UTC)