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Clarification and Amendment requests

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Amendment request: Catflap08 and Hijiri88	Motion	(orig. case)	15 September 2017

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Requests for clarification and amendment

Amendment request: Catflap08 and Hijiri88

Initiated by Hijiri88 at 21:45, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected: Catflap08 and Hijiri88 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Hijiri88: Topic ban (II)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

Hijiri88 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Username (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Username (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

[diff of notification Username]
[diff of notification Username]

Information about amendment request

Hijiri88: Topic ban (II)

4) ~~Hijiri88 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to Japanese culture. Appeals of this ban may be requested no earlier than twelve months since the date the case closed.~~

Stricken on appeal.

Statement by Hijiri88

I would like to appeal this topic ban. I have been on my best behaviour since the ban was put in place, and have never violated it. I deeply regret my actions, including edit-warring and threats, that led to the original decision, and believe I have sufficiently reformed and made amends. I have also been doing my best to create content proactively despite the fact that the TBAN covered most of the topics I have a sufficient knowledge to edit in.

I have written a fair few articles on classical Chinese literature (see here and especially here). The problem is that writing on these topics is much more difficult for me than writing on classical Japanese poetry, which I studied in college and have access to an abundance of materials on, and can even visit and take photos of relevant historical sites associated with the poets (not something I could do without at least a week's vacation and air fare for poets from China). Also, last year during Asian Month I worked very hard to get just five articles on Chinese poets out over the course of the month, but the previous year (not during Asian Month) I had comfortably created 13 decent articles on Japanese poets in a single day. (None of these articles had anything to do with the Arbitration case, nor did the vast majority of my earlier contributions to Japanese culture articles.) And even though my French is not what it used to be, I have access to sources and am generally aware of the topic area, so that I found it easier to write articles on Japanese topics for fr.wiki than articles on pretty much anything else on en.wiki.[1] One of them was even drafted in English.

I really love writing articles for Wikipedia, and I would really love to go back to editing articles in my main area of expertise. And I promise that I will not engage in the kind of behaviour that led to the 2015 Arbitration case again.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:45, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if I'm required to notify the other parties -- am I? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:58, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was holding out on explicitly commenting on Callanecc's proposal, since I would (obviously) prefer an unconditional repeal to a suspended restriction, and wanted to see what the other Arbitrators would say. But I am absolutely open to the suspended restriction as proposed, and would welcome the chance to prove my character. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:12, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, I pinged one Arbitrator and he pinged two more, but I still haven't got an answer about whether telling Nishidani on my talk page what my post-suspension article plans are (the Kakinomoto no Hitomaro article is pitifully short and practically unsourced, plus some other stuff) would be acceptable now that the suspension of my ban seems like a near-certainty.

But for that matter, how long should I expect to wait for this to be closed, my ban formally suspended, and the six-month clock to start counting down? The motion passed seven votes more than a week ago and thus far has unanimous support, and while it would be nice to be able to say that the suspension of my ban received unanimous support from the entire Committee, I've kinda been putting my editing on hold for the last week (28 mainspace edits in seven days is well below my average) based on the assumption that my ban would be suspended imminently, and that, given that, drafting Japanese stuff off-wiki would be more worth my time than the other stuff I've been doing.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:13, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Curly Turkey

"all pages relating to Japanese culture" was drastically overbroad from the beginning, and Catflap has since been indeffed. If this restriction was ever really preventative, it has long since ceased to be so, and now only prevents Hijiri from making his most useful contributions. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:11, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nishidani

Hijiri's originally problem was excessive page argument, justified somewhat by the fact that many of the pages he (and I)edited were worked by ill-informed trolls - several of whom are no longer with us - who appeared incapable of understanding the cultures, something of which Hijiri cannot be accused. He is a very useful Asian-pages editor, with close attention for high quality sourcing, something somewhat rare. He has in the meantime given evidence that he is producing good work on the areas outside his ban. I see no reason why his ban should not be revoked. All that is needed is a reminder not to get caught up in arguments: make one's point, adduce sources, and exercise patience.Nishidani (talk) 11:42, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Schonken. Bring the diffs and make sure they are not stale. Secondly measure the putative NPA remarks at boards against the huge content contributions Hijiri makes(at Li He, for example, from 5kb to 50kb). I'm amazed that petty sensitivities count more in evaluating editors than what they actually do in encyclopedic construction.Nishidani (talk) 19:50, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Francis. You have an impressive musical knowledge, and that is invaluable for Wikipedia. We are talking about an editor with an impressive knowledge of East Asian cultures and whether he should be allowed back to edit on those topics. Both of you have been characterized in the past as persistently disruptive. Hijiri knows I have taken him to task more than once some years ago for excessive pettifogging. I see no sign of that now. Once editors start to 'profile' others for the usual etiquette/disruptive behavioural problems, the encyclopedic construction of Wikipedia is needlessly compromised. The vice of these arbitration issues is to get so caught up in personal bickering, that what an editor actually does in contributing quality material to their areas of specialized competence is lost from view. One should never wear grudges, esp. over trivia. 3 editors with strong competence in the area of Japanese articles (all of whom have had tiffs with Hiji) think his return to them would be a net positive.

The diffs you mention relate to a few brief comments Hijiri made in an extremely long thread where several reputable voices thought you disruptive. I have no opinion on it other than noting that what Hijiri stated was a variation on what several other editors were asserting. To pick him out for echoing what editors of high standing affirmed is not convincing.

The second diff refers to his differences with John Carter. I have amicable relations with both Hijiri and John, and again will not take sides.

Behaviour is problematical if there is a well-documented pattern: there is no such evidence for this (so far) regarding Hijiri's contributions for the last 9 months. Nishidani (talk) 10:04, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Alex Shih

Since I have been active in WP:CHINA and WP:JAPAN, I am an admirer of the content creation by Hijiri88 in East Asian topics. It can be a very contentious field with only very few experienced editors dealing with users pushing for WP:NPOV agenda. I can understand the frustration that led to the problematic behaviour. My recent interactions with the editor have been mostly positive, with only small remnants of the excessive/emotional arguments that was the scope of the original ban. After two years of relatively constructive editing, I am very supportive of lifting at least the topic ban on pages relating to Japanese culture at this time. Alex Shih ^Talk 13:53, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Francis Schonken

I disagree Hijiri has been on their best behaviour in the last year. I recall receiving some insults (which I let go in an ignore PAs logic), possibly a late reaction to me closing one of the numerous Japan-related ANIs Hijiri was involved in. Will look up the diffs if needed, but have no time right now. If modified, the remedy should rather be broadened to various sorts of obstructive behaviour, and certainly not rescinded. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:23, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Opabinia (and others): was working on it. Let me first state clearly that as far as I'm concerned Hijiri doesn't deserve all that much editor time (including mine). The editor has created and contributed to time sinks ad libitum. I'd like that to stop. Which was the gist of my ANI thread close I alluded to above (and regarding which current arbitrator Drmies accused me at the time of not being severe enough against Hijiri and the editor with whom Hijiri was having a dispute then). After which Hijiri popped up at ANI again, and again, and again, absorbing quite a lot of editor time (their own and that of others, at ANI and elsewhere) that could have been spent much more productively elsewhere. So allow me to be as brief as possible.

12:33, 25 January 2017 — As far as I can recall Hijiri's last insult directed at me. Within the time frame of "the last year". Accuses me of gaming, which I take as an insult. Hope I'm permitted to take that as an insult, so I didn't respond to the PA. Re. "I'm amazed that petty sensitivities count more in evaluating editors than what they actually do in encyclopedic construction" — Indeed: I'm a prolific editor on Bach-related topics: the diff above is taken from a long ANI thread on a Bach-related topic, which an admin attempted (unsuccessfully) to close as a "morass", and to which Hijiri had contributed profusely with their "petty sensitivities", without any regard for evaluating editors for "what they actually do in encyclopedic construction", far beyond the point where their aspersions had already been rejected multiple times. So I no further reacted to Hijiri in that thread: would have been counterproductive. But illustrates how Hijiri has a knack of never stopping to amaze others how for them "petty sensitivities count more in evaluating editors than what they actually do in encyclopedic construction".

Looking up the diff above I came across Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive944#Requested block of User:Hijiri88, which resulted in an IBAN involving Hijiri, decided 00:12, 26 January 2017 (UTC), which is also within the "last year" timeframe, and illustrating Hijiri not being on their best behaviour in that period. The previous point can, as far as I'm concerned, be ignored (I was just illustrating that my memory hadn't played a trick on me).

Here's what I propose: originally Hijiri couldn't appeal to an ArbCom remedy before a year had passed. Maybe amend that provision to read that Hijiri can not appeal an ArbCom remedy before having stayed out of trouble for the period of a year. "Staying out of trouble" being defined as: no new sanctions levied against them, whether they be community-imposed sanctions or ArbCom sanctions. Maybe apart from "staying out of trouble" defined thus, also a restriction on Hijiri initiating new ANI postings about editors with whom they're involved in a dispute. Something like an "automatic boomerang" every time Hijiri plays that trick might be considered. Note that that directly connects to what I wrote in the closure of the ANI thread I closed a long time ago (and which I mentioned in my OP). --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:56, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Re. Nishidani's suggestion above that no evidence has been brought to this ARCA request regarding disruptive behaviour patterns by Hijiri for the last 9 months: true. I have no clue whether such evidence can be found or not. Seems extremely unlikely I would go looking for such evidence (see my "time sink" and "doesn't deserve all that much editor time" kind of comments above). Anyway, when there is none of such evidence brought to this ARCA, my suggestion above simply translates to Hijiri waiting another three months before filing a request to be liberated from Arbitration remedies. Could live with that, without further ado. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:13, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, the six months "suspension" transitional period, as in the proposed motion, is as good as (maybe even better than) what I proposed. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MjolnirPants

Every time I'm confronted with the fact that Hijiri is subject to a topic ban, I'm surprised anew. I've noted him to be a bit tenacious (note that's "tenacious", not "tendentious") on talk pages, but only in situations where another editor was (deliberately or not) engaging in behavior that might justifiably be called "infuriating". In all, I've found Hijiri to be a damned good editor. I've worked with Hijiri in the past, and even butted heads with Hijiri in the past, and never encountered any behavior which I would consider to be indicative of someone who might benefit from a TBAN. Furthermore, Hijiri clearly has a great grasp of Japanese language and culture (a minor interest of mine; I don't claim any great expertise, but I can certainly recognize expertise) and would be a great boon to those pages. In the interest of improving the project, the best thing we could do with this TBAN is end it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 00:20, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: I just took a look at the diff and archive link provided by Francis above me. The "insult" linked is quite clearly anything but (it is an argument, not an insult), and the IBAN was not only voluntary on Hijiri's part, it was actively encouraged by him to put an end to what was some unarguably hounding behavior on the part of John Carter. It's also a little surprising that an IBAN was the only outcome, as several users commented on some highly questionable (read: explicitly blockable) behavior on the part of John. I'm guessing the fact that Hijiri was so amenable to an IBAN is the only reason John Cater escaped sanctions in that thread. I couldn't find a single editor defending John, and only a very small number of editors criticizing Hijiri specifically. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:23, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

pinging Arbs @Casliber, Keilana, and Kirill Lokshin: and the clerk @Miniapolis: to Hijiri88's most recent question. Apologies if any of you were aware already or didn't want a ping for whatever reason. Or if I pinged anyone inappropriately. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 22:08, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SMcCandlish

Concur with the above (aside from Francis Schonken on some stuff, covered below). I encounter Hijiri88 regularly, and the editor is not at all disruptive or otherwise problematic on Asian culture topics or elsewhere, in my experience. What happened over Japanese poetry was a momentary blip, and even if some restriction were kept, it should be sharply narrowed to address the specifics of the case, not "Japanese culture" generally. I find it hard to credit that Hijiri88 would be disruptive in that topic area, going forward. The lesson appears to have been learned, and there's no evidence Hijiri88 is habitually intemperate or obsessive.

Francis's concerns seem very localized to a couple of specific disputes (about which I'll take his word), plus a distaste for Hijiri's ANI activities. The former seem like a personal dispute that's pretty old news at this point, though it is within the year. Two diffs don't really seem to establish much of a pattern, though. I don't spend enough time at ANI to have much of a pro or con view on Hijiri's entries there; almost everything at ANI that isn't addressing a WP:NOTHERE troll, vandal or COI matter seems like a waste of time to me, so it's difficult to conceptualize a scale of deplorable through fantastic behavior or style there. I do have to question the idea of banning an editor from one of the prescribed dispute resolution forums/methods. Anyway, I encounter Hijiri88 through normal content editing, and policy discussions, and their input has been constructive in my encounters, though occasionally emotional, as with many of us. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 09:10, 18 September 2017 (UTC) Updated to account for Francis's later materials. 00:36, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Catflap08 and Hijiri88: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Catflap08 and Hijiri88: Arbitrator views and discussion

I'm definitely willing to reconsider this restriction. I'd be leaning towards suspending the TBAN for 6-12 months (during which time it can be reinstated by any uninvolved admin) rather than removing it outright. However, I'd like the diffs of the comments mentioned by Francis Schonken before I make a final decision. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:20, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Callanecc. Francis, I would probably have been more persuaded if you'd just waited till you had the time to post with actual evidence. Now, the expectations have been set high. Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:53, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with lifting this restriction. I am not convinced by Francis Schonken's evidence, not at all. Having said that, and this is water under the bridge, I think Catflap was punished overly harsh. They committed a TBAN violation, and made a stupid remark about it, which was (in my opinion) misread as "bragging" in the AN discussion. Catflap, IMO, was here to improve the project, but the ArbCom case imposed such a narrow restriction on him, a restriction I still think was unfair (a link to take down the rabbit hole), and that put Catflap in a corner from which they saw no way out: the only topic they edited on Wikipedia was taken away from them. We might as well have banned them in 2015. All this to say no, this wasn't "bragging"--it was a kind of desperate cry. And if we look back at this now, and we see Hijiri having rights restored (mind you, I am all for it), we should consider that perhaps we could have two knowledgeable editors working in their own fields, instead of one. Drmies (talk) 14:38, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Catflap08 and Hijiri88: Motion

Remedy 4 (Hijiri88: Topic ban (II)) of the Catflap08 and Hijiri88 arbitration case is suspended for a period of six months. During the period of suspension, this restriction may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator as an arbitration enforcement action should Hijiri88 fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process in the area defined in the topic ban remedy. After six months from the date this motion is enacted, if the restriction has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the restriction will automatically lapse.

For this motion there are 13 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Enacted - Miniapolis 22:57, 29 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Per my comments above, I don't find the statement from Francis enough to rule out suspending the topic ban (especially as opposed to lifting it outright). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:33, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I support this. (I'll leave a rumination in the discussion section.) Drmies (talk) 14:27, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think Hijiri88 deserves a chance to demonstrate their good-faith. This motion allows the community a means to respond without restarting a painful process, should it not work out. Easing of restrictions in steps is a cautious way forward and one that still allows Hijiri88 to engage in editing the areas they are interested in. Mkdw ^talk 21:02, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
OK. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 11:45, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with this. Doug Weller talk 12:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:04, 21 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support. DGG ( talk ) 20:09, 22 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Worth a shot. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 15:02, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:59, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not especially familiar with User:Hijiri88's content editing, but I will defer to the consensus that he should be given another opportunity to contribute in his area of expertise. Frankly, I think this will be a better use of his talent and wikitime than extensive participation in noticeboard threads where he is not a party, a context in which he is clearly well-intentioned, but sometimes tends to distractingly monopolize the discussions. Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:44, 25 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain/Recuse

@@ Line 102: / Line 102: @@
 {{ivmbox|1=[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Catflap08 and Hijiri88#Hijiri88: Topic ban (II)|Remedy 4]] (Hijiri88: Topic ban (II)) of the [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Catflap08 and Hijiri88|''Catflap08 and Hijiri88'']] arbitration case is suspended for a period of six months. During the period of suspension, this restriction may be reinstated by any uninvolved administrator as an arbitration enforcement action should Hijiri88 fail to adhere to the [[WP:Five pillars|purpose of Wikipedia]], any expected [[WP:Etiquette|standards of behaviour]], or any [[WP:List of policies|normal editorial process]] in the area defined in the topic ban remedy. After six months from the date this motion is enacted, if the restriction has not been reinstated or any reinstatements have been successfully appealed, the restriction will automatically lapse.}}
 :''{{ACMajority|active=13|inactive=2|abstain=0|motion=yes}}'' <!-- DQ and Euryalus are inactive -->
+'''Enacted''' - [[User:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:navy">Mini</span>''''']][[User_talk:Miniapolis|'''''<span style="color:#8B4513">apolis</span>''''']] 22:57, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
 :'''Support'''
 :# Per my comments above, I don't find the statement from Francis enough to rule out suspending the topic ban (especially as opposed to lifting it outright). <b>[[User:Callanecc|Callanecc]]</b> ([[User talk:Callanecc|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Callanecc|contribs]] • [[Special:Log/Callanecc|logs]]) 08:33, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0–1	7
2–3	6
4–5	5