Help talk:IPA/French

Oi

"oi" is missing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 11:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

It's consonant plus vowel, /wa/. Double sharp (talk) 05:04, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Guttural R example is wrong

The page claims:

ʁ regarder, nôtre[3] Guttural R, Scottish English loch, but voiced

But the ch sound in loch sounds nothing like a R of any kind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.62.77 (talk) 12:23, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Voice it and pull it a bit further back in your throat. (Although I wonder if "guttural R" really does sound like an R to monolingual English-speakers.) Double sharp (talk) 09:09, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

French /r/ is devoiced in many positions and ranges between velar and uvular, so [x] is a fairly good approximation. You don't even need to voice it or pull it back. Nardog (talk) 00:22, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@Nardog: Fair enough. But I did wonder if [ʀ] might sound more like an R of some kind to the OP's ears. Double sharp (talk) 06:53, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Anomaly?

Moved from User talk:Nardog

Hi.

I don't think /t͡ʃ/ in French is a "phonotactic anomaly" but rather a full-fledged phoneme since:

1) it appears in NO native French words allophonically (except for some dialects such as Acadian, where it is an allophone of /k/, but not in Standard (European) French), only in more recent loanwords;

2) native speakers intuitively feel that it's a separate phoneme so they use a special trigraph "tch" to write it;

3) if it were just an "anomaly" (whatever that's supposed to mean), it would arise NATURALLY in every single environment in which there were /t/ and /ʃ/ one after the other, which does not happen at all from what I know;

4) if it's not a phoneme, why did you not remove /ŋ/ as well? The status of this sound as an independent phoneme is even more questionable than that of /t͡ʃ/, let's be honest.

All in all, I'd say /t͡ʃ/ is a marginal phoneme borrowed from recent loanwords, especially from English, rather than merely an allophone of /t/. If you're still not convinced, I've got another argument: /t/, /ʃ/, and /t͡ʃ/ form minimal pairs, e.g. "thèque", "chèque", and "tchèque", in which only the first consonant is distinctive. That's enough to consider the latter an independent phoneme, albeit with a limited distribution. 83.9.190.72 (talk) 06:09, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

We shouldn't include ⟨tʃ⟩ separately in the key unless there's consensus among linguists that it is a distinct phoneme. A quick look at Fougeron & Smith (1999), Walker (2001), Gess, Lyche & Meisenburg (2012), and Battye, Hintze & Rowlett (2000)—all of whom do include /ŋ/—indicates not.

We don't list ⟨tɬ⟩ in the Spanish key either even though /tl/ occurs tautosyllabically in Nahuatl loans in certain varieties of Spanish, as this can be explained as a difference in phonotactic constraints (much like rhoticity in English) and there's evidence that it's not articulated differently from other stop–lateral clusters. I don't see how this is different from that.

I don't think anyone would dispute that [tʃ] occurs in French, but you need to show us reliable sources if you insist it's a distinct phoneme and not a cluster comprising /t/ + /ʃ/. Nardog (talk) 06:49, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Australian drawn

It seems like the nasalized o example as in "Australian drawn" is not a good choice. How many people know how an Australian says "drawn"? Math-ghamhainn (talk) 22:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

What would you suggest instead? — W.andrea (talk) 22:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

amendments

- I find the sound in book more similar to the French o than story which resembles /ɔ̃/ in French
- lab in British English is pronounced /a/ rather than /æ/, hence would be a better example than trap
- the sound in mace (/ɛ/) in BE just isn't the same as in clé (/e/)
- monsieur & faisons resembles /ø/ rather than /ə/
Couiros22 (talk) 18:40, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, I'm not a linguist or a fluent French speaker, so take this with a grain of salt.

I find the sound in book more similar to the French o

The sound in "book" is [ʊ], which is also a realization of /u/ in Quebecois (e.g. in «route»), so that's not a good example regardless of similarity, but either way, I disagree that it's more similar. The main thing is [ʊ] is centralized while /o/ is not, AFAIK.

story which resembles /ɔ̃/ in French

The "o" in "story" isn't nasalized in any way, so maybe you meant /ɔ/ like in «sort» ?

lab in British English is pronounced /a/ rather than /æ/, hence would be a better example than trap

/a/ isn't a phoneme in English, and British English isn't one thing, so are you talking about [a] as the standard realization of /æ/ in Received Pronunciation? I actually have that too in my Canadian accent, but "lab" and "trap" have the exact same vowel for me. Anyway, TRAP is the keyword for /æ/, so I'd rather stick with that regardless of whether some dialects can get a closer approximation. Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO.

the sound in mace (/ɛ/) in BE just isn't the same as in clé (/e/)

The sound in "mace" is /eɪ/, not /ɛ/ (as in "best"). I really have no idea where you got that, because in most British dialects, it's either a diphthong like [eɪ] or a long vowel like [e:] (e.g. Yorkshire).

monsieur & faisons resembles /ø/ rather than /ə/

/ə/ can be realized as [ø], maybe that's what you're hearing. That's actually mentioned in the page: In Mainland French, while /ə/ is phonologically distinct, its phonetic quality tends to coincide with either /ø/ or /œ/.

— W.andrea (talk) 22:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

- the sound in book is still by far the most similar to French o ; according to wiktionary story and sort are both pronounced /ɔ/

- in standard British English band (/æ/) ≠ bad (/a/) , hand /æ/ ≠ had (/a/) ; grændad.

- standard BE : mace : ɛɪ not eɪ

- so maybe we should have separate examples for /ø/ & /œ/

--Couiros22 (talk) 07:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Please clarify:

story and sort are both pronounced /ɔ/

English doesn't have a phoneme /ɔ/ in the Wikipedia system.

standard British English ... /a/

As I said, those don't exist. Are you talking about RP?

ɛɪ not eɪ

Please use the correct notation.

Regardless, what are you proposing instead of "mace"? English doesn't have any sounds closer to the French /e/.

so maybe we should have separate examples for /ø/ & /œ/

We do. They start with «ceux» and «sœur», respectively.

— W.andrea (talk) 18:12, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

- ok I meant [ɔː], which is not the same as [o]

- in RP and standard English accent (except up north) 'grandad' is pronounced /grændad/

- ...while mace is pronounced /ɛɪ/ not /eɪ/

- so perhaps we should displace the examples under [ə] to [ø]

Couiros22 (talk) 20:22, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

/grændad/ ... /ɛɪ/ not /eɪ/ ... [ə] to [ø]

Sorry, I don't want to be rude, but that notation is still incorrect. Do you not know the difference between phonemes and phones?

Maybe part of the problem is you're confusing the forward slashes with backslashes? Those are often used in French, like on Wiktionnaire, for IPA-based transcriptions that -- I'm not sure how to explain it exactly -- sort of take a middle-ground between phonemic and broad phonetic.

— W.andrea (talk) 22:50, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

still comprehensible though (regardless of the notation) ...so could you please address each of the comments ? --Couiros22 (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

At this point I've lost track of what we're debating. Could you restate your argument? — W.andrea (talk) 18:19, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

- the French o phoneme's closest equivalent in English is [ʊ] as in 'book' (the o in 'story' corresponds to another French vowel sound : [ɔ̃], eventhough it isn't nasalised)

- the French a phoneme's closest equivalent in English (different to [æ]) is the [a] found in British English; however most of the time is only found in a minority of words (often before b,d,g, such as the second a in 'grandad', handbag' etc.) ; words like trap use the ordinary æ and so aren't a good example of equivalent

- 'mace' is majoritarily pronounced using [ɛ] rather than [e] across England , hence doesn't correspond to the e in French words such as clé etc.

Couiros22 (talk) 18:57, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

This is off-topic, but please be careful which message you're replying to. This is the third time I've had to fix the formatting. In this case it's not too bad cause it's just us two talking, but if there were more people involved, it'd be unclear who you're replying to. — W.andrea (talk) 21:32, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

the French o phoneme's closest equivalent in English is [ʊ]

I've already addressed this in my first reply. (... also a realization of /u/ in Quebecois ... [ʊ] is centralized ...)

words like trap use the ordinary æ and so aren't a good example of equivalent

I've already addressed this in my first reply. (TRAP is the keyword for /æ/ ... this isn't terribly important IMHO.)

'mace' is majoritarily pronounced using [ɛ] rather than [e]

Again, what are you proposing instead? Secondly, you're still presenting it as a monophthong, but it's not.

— W.andrea (talk) 21:46, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

- Quebecois is a cherry-picked example

- /æ/ is not used in French

- words like 'fit' 'did' 'insipid' etc.

Couiros22 (talk) 09:14, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Please don't use edit summaries to discuss. After one revert, discuss on the talk page instead of reverting again. We can continue discussion here, but I've already addressed the points you brought up in your edit summary:

(trap) is /æ/, (grandad) is /a/

/a/ isn't a phoneme in English ... Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO.

— W.andrea (talk) 18:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

/a/ is a phoneme in English (at least in some varieties) ; here are some examples : North American English regional phonology --Couiros22 (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I mean in the Wikipedia system, which is technically diaphonemic. — W.andrea (talk) 20:35, 12 September 2023 (UTC) edited 21:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

/a/ is also frequent in Britain let alone the North of England where even words like trap use this vowel

+ I don't think there's anyone in Britain who pronounces the second a in 'grandad' as /æ/ ...I think it's even impossible if it isn't slightly diphthongized e.g. in North American English /ɪæ/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Couiros22 (talk • contribs) 08:42, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

/a/ isn't a phoneme in English ...

yes it is... in British English

Some of the other approximations are so far off that a detail like this isn't terribly important IMHO...

exactly, which is why I amended them right from the beginning... ; moreover there are many subtle nuances on the help page (particularly a/â ; this one is distinguishable in oral French)

from the edit summary

Does not apply to rhotic dialects.

so let's unbold the r then (as I did in some of my initial modifications, which you reverted without explanation)

- regarding book and story, I've also explained why the former is a better example (story just is too different, and strongly resembles another French phoneme ɔ̃)

- book being pronounced differently in a few very minor dialects isn't a good enough reason to invalidate this example --Couiros22 (talk) 09:09, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Couiros22, please indent your comments correctly, you have been advised to do this earlier in this discussion, failing to do it is just rude.

BTW, there is no such thing as British English in the context of spoken language, as distinct from written English. I suspect you really mean RP or Received Pronunciation, remember there is a great variety of spoken dialects in Great Britain. Please use accurate terminology unless you wish to be reverted out of hand for arrant nonsense. - Nick Thorne ^talk 13:41, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, please obtain consensus here before making your changes again. - Nick Thorne ^talk 13:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Re Special:Diff/1175799536:

The first consonants in wet and one are the same sound. The latter is an utterly poor choice because o stands for both a consonant and vowel, /wʌ/ (another way to look at it is that /w/ is unwritten).

[ɥ] is a consonant. huit and Puy are [ɥi] and [pɥi], respectively, where [i] is the syllable nucleus. Huey is /ˈhjuːi/, which has two vowels in succession, and it is /uː/ that is more prominent. The insertion of Huey was a poor choice to begin with, so I suggest we restore the previous approximation, "between wet and yet", which is a straightforward description of what [ɥ] is—a labial–palatal approximant.

All vowels in trap and grandad are the same. Just look up the words in the OED, which uses ⟨a⟩ for BrE and ⟨æ⟩ for AmE. Our dialect-neutral IPA key for English represents it as /æ/, following the predominant notation before the 1990s. Oxford University Press has switched to ⟨a⟩ to represent the same phoneme in BrE in dictionaries aimed at native speakers, but this is just that—a different representation. It means the same thing as /æ/—just look up the word in a dictionary from any other publisher that uses IPA, or even OUP's dictionary not aimed at native speakers, such as the Advanced Learner's Dictionary.

The first vowel in hammock is the same as the ones in trap and grandad. This change makes no sense. As the accompanying footnote explains, [ɑ] in this key specifically represents the quality when not merged with /a/, unlike in contemporary Parisian French, so using anything other than /ɑː/ (which is the vowel in bra) would be inexplicable.

insipid for [e] is the only change of yours I find defensible, but people found it confusing so we'd better stick to /eɪ/, which is monophthongal in some varieties of English (e.g. Scottish).

bird and burn have the same vowel. Most varieties of English don't have front rounded vowels, so English has only /ɜːr/ to approximate [ø] or [œ]. Other keys note the suboptimal nature by prefacing it with "somewhat like". Denoting the difference between the two like "... but more open/close" is an option, but this is likely pointless because those who understand such terminology wouldn't need the approximations to begin with.

story is a far better approximation to [o] than book. The quality of the vowel in southern Britain has diverged from the conventional ⟨ɔ⟩ towards [o], see e.g. [1]. /ʊ/, the vowel in book, is not only higher but centered. /ɔːr/ (but without highlighting the /r/) also works for American accents, unlike /oʊ/ or /ɔː/ not followed by /r/, because it's not diphthongal and is little affected by the cot–caught merger.

off and cover don't have the same vowel. off is already close (most accents, with or without the lot–cloth split or cot–caught merger, have it around [ɔ]), and listing two is pointless and confusing.

Overall, your edits and comments show little understanding of the phonetics and phonology of English and French and the pronunciation of English words. Please do not edit the key without establishing consensus on the talk page any further. Nardog (talk) 15:25, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

BTW, there is no such thing as British English in the context of spoken language, as distinct from written English.

I meant for the phoneme in question, this is the case of every dialect in Britain, where the second a in graded and handbag are much closer to /a/ (except in northern England and Scotland, where even the first a resembles /a/.

The latter is an utterly poor choice because o stands for both a consonant and vowel

It's the best equivalent for loi.

"between wet and yet"

How can huit be anywhere near /j/ ?

insipid for [e] is the only change of yours I find defensible, but people found it confusing

I find mate even more confusing, which isn't pronounced as é or [I] in most British dialects.

story is a far better approximation to [o] than book.

...even in American English?

off and cover don't have the same vowel

I meant sort and off have the same pronunciation, so do pomme and cover

Couiros22 (talk) 16:23, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

so do pomme and cover is a fair point. /ɔ/ is centered in Paris and may sound close to Southern British/Australian STRUT [ɐ]. Sol505000 (talk) 13:41, 18 September 2023 (UTC)